Former Australian Deputy PM John Anderson and I speak again
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Former Australian Deputy PM John Anderson and I speak again


Jordan thank you so much for giving us some time again. I’m in Sydney. You’re in Kentucky. Yes, I am I’m there as part of my 12 rules for life tour Which is I think expanding to hit about maybe 80 cities something like that Goodness. Well, that was very keen to have a follow-up chat after the conversation that you and I had together when you’re in Sydney And in particular to frame that for people who might be listening this conversation at that time I had not seen you in front of a live audience The evening of that conversation after that conversation. I had that opportunity at Chatswood one of the seven talks that you gave in Australia put together by Sam McClelland from From Melbourne every one of them are sellout I have to say I don’t know whether the biggest issue for me is what I learnt by watching that all the questions that arise out of it But the first thing I’d say is I was concerned at the time That you and I had had a very long conversation that it might be too long for people when we put it on the website And you said no John? It won’t be young people especially are hungry for content. Put it all up there They will listen to it. You’re absolutely right young people looking for content It’s it is absolutely amazing. Yes. Well, I mean some of the big YouTube stars like Joe Rogan They’re they’re constantly putting out three-hour podcasts and people listen to all of them long-haul truckers listen to them and guys driving forklifts and and young people and and couples and Like there’s a massive hunger for real for ready for high-quality educational material It shouldn’t be underestimated and I mean one of the things that seems to be the case with these people on YouTube that are making a splash let’s say in this alternate media format is that they fully they have full respect for the or the intelligence of their audience and they don’t pull any punches in terms of content or length Yeah, well, that’s where they come back to that but but as I say, you know It’s just extraordinary I pull up in a fuel station out in a country town near where I live And somebody gets out of the car next to me father of about 35 I suppose he looks at me and he just says straight up before even says hello he said I’ve just been listening to you and Jordan Peterson having a conversation and Everywhere I go now. That’s what people say. So thank you for the opportunity. You made the comment there though there for every youtube Visit they’d be up to 11 podcasts. I think that’s what you said well the podcast market is absolutely exploding and you’re actually sitting seeing this start to affect book publishing because audio books have become extraordinarily popular and people are discovering that they can use their found time when they’re commuting or Exercising or walking or doing dishes whatever to engage themselves in high quality. Um well high quality educational material books and podcasts and so that’s a real revolution it and it really is a revolution So these are the people young people too, you know instead of listening to music Which is really something because musics being a predominant cultural force for a very long time So it’s an it’s an amazing technological revolution and I really appreciate it or a conversation by the way I think we had a great conversation I enjoyed it immensely And it seems to me that this is a sort of modern version and and I think this is terrific if I’m understanding it correctly Or the old idea where people who have perhaps had another great formal education had access to good quality Literature and so forth put together by whether it was penguin or what. Was it every man’s book So every everyday books whatever they were called even Reader’s Digest To make that education that learning the classics and so forth available widely And now this is a modern version of it perhaps and I think what’s happening with the mainstream mean? that they underestimate the Moral quality of their viewers, they underestimate their intelligence. They underestimate their persistence and they’ve also become quite manipulative in their use of editing and and message Massaging spin really and the other thing that’s really good about these sorts of conversations Is that what you see is what you get their bare bones They’re they’re not high-tech while they are and their highest tech in some sense, but not on the production end or the editing end So people can trust them and they’re genuine conversations. They’re not designed to craft the message or anything like that They’re not manipulative and and that’s a big deal YouTube YouTube Particularly doesn’t respond well to manipulation as far as I can tell. Well, I enjoyed that conversation enormously. I’ve been stunned by the response It’s gone very very widely as you know Both on your site and on mine But to come back to that day later that day you gave one of the talks of the set one of the seven that you gave in Australia Chatswood and I was very kindly allowed to compare it for you and One thing that 19 years in public life taught me is to have a bit of a look at your audience and summarize them It was a pretty amazing experience. The first thing that happened was that you walked on before you said a word You’ve got a standing ovation though that that’s something unheard of in this country, but they did 90 minutes talk they gave you another standing ovation you left came for a few minutes came back on took 30 minutes of questions and Again, they responded in the same way. Let me just say a couple of things about that audience. I was firstly I’ve got to say pretty heavily impacted as I looked out there and Recognized that there was an enormous hunger to hear what you had to say Even though your message was perhaps best described as tough. Love you weren’t Ginger in them up with a soft story. You were really pushing you were really challenging them The second thing that struck me is that I’ve said many times since I reckon 50% of the people in that room that night were young Australian men under the age of probably 35 The third thing that struck me was that that was a was a cross section I would say many of them were University students, but all university graduates But many many were not and the fourth thing that just goes back to something. You said a moment ago They knew what you were saying and you’re a clinical psychologist and a highly educated Person to suggest that they didn’t understand would be very patronizing they got what you’re on about. Oh, definitely There’s there’s no doubt about that I mean there those lectures aren’t interesting unless you understand them and there’s just no doubt that that’s happening you know, I think one of the most that psychologists have made Especially the more popular ones over the last three or four decades is to try to convince people that they’re okay the way they are It’s like the self-esteem movement, you know, you should love yourself the way they you are You should feel good about yourself the way you are and that’s actually not a very optimistic Message for people because people are generally sensible enough to not be particularly satisfied with the way that they are They want to be who they could be they want to have something noble to aim at and and and So I I make that case very strong that you’re you should more but aligned and on board with who you can be then with who you are and that who you can be isn’t a person who has endless rights or Or or as the member of a privileged or under privileged group It should be who you should be should be an individual who’s willing to take on full responsibility for the for the catastrophe of existence and for the malevolence that’s part of it and See, I think people are responding to that first of all because everyone who has any sense knows that life is a tragic business and that everyone is Susceptible to betrayal and malevolence on their own part and and as a consequence of the actions of others, that’s our existential Predicament and I think people also know in a very deep sense that the antidote to that isn’t security or safety And it’s not envy or bitterness. It’s the willingness to try to work to make the world a better place to start with yourself to take responsibility for yourself and then to take responsibility for your family and then to take responsibility for your community and everyone knows that the people they admire are exactly the people that do that and We also all know that that’s what gets you out of bed on a rough morning It’s that you’ve got something important and vital to do and it’s not an easy thing It isn’t necessarily even something that makes you happy It’s something that’s meaningful and necessary to fight back against the tragedy and the malevolence of the world and people know that Deeply it’s deeply rooted inside their their souls. I would say and a call to that is very meaningful for people including me, you know, I include myself and my audience like I’m Lecturing to them precisely. I’m having a conversation with them about how we can step the world right And we are setting it right things are getting better very rapidly around the world and we can really push that forward in the decades To come if we if we made a conscious effort and so I think this is a very exciting message for people One of the things that I’d say about Australians is as I got the world’s best bulldust detectors. They recognise authentic authenticity Very quickly, and if you’re not authentic, they won’t listen So I think in part they are responding if I can pay you a compliment by the fact that you weren’t talking about you You were talking about us You were addressing Where we are all together as human beings and in a way it was as though you were saying To get to the good news You’ve actually got to go through what might be called the valley of death. You’ve got to face yourself You’ve got to be realistic about yourself in the world that you live in And I saw those put young people It was almost as though they were saying we’re sick to death of a therapy cup a culture that offers us sort of To relieve to everyone there’s a there’s a dictum that Carl Jung derived from the great alchemists in the circle in this infinite or and it means What you most want will be found where you least want to look? What you most need will be found where you least want to look and that people know that you know everyone knows they are tired of naive Optimism let’s say and not optimism because optimism doesn’t have to be naive and they know perfectly well that the way to set themselves right is to take careful stock of themselves and to pay very careful attention to the errors that they know they’re making and to and to grow up and to mature and to and to adopt the responsibilities of a forthright citizen and I think people are sick to death of too much discussion of rights and and too much discussion of self-esteem and all that all that all That discussion that goes along with what everyone owes you it’s like it’s just not helpful to people because it isn’t your rights that give you meaning in life and You need a meaning to set against the tragedy and every knows that the way that you find that meaning. It’s by adopting responsibility, obviously For yourself, you gotta take care of yourself your family I mean you want to be a good person to your parents. You want to be a good person to your siblings and your children Clearly and you have to bear some responsibility for your community And if you’re really firing on all cylinders, you do all those things at the same time You know and and I do believe and I tell people I do believe that the world is the tragic and malevolent place in many many ways but that the way forward through that is is to Do everything you can to put yourself on the side of what’s good and to aim high and that that’s where you get the dignity That enables you to bear life without becoming corrupt and everyone knows this is true Who’s gonna argue with that? having found yourself and having any of your like and being realistic about yourself and Recognizing we were talking about this last time the dividing line between good and evil. It’s not between black and white or whatever captor and jailer Or man and woman It’s somewhere across every human heart having recognized that you can then go on and help build a stronger fairer more just more humane society rather than what seems to be the way people approach it at the moment so That somehow rather your society can fix your problems. Yes. Well, that’s it I mean for young people in particular, it’s kits are actually a very depressing message for young people to hear that It’s time for them to get involved in political activism because any young person who has any sense knows perfectly Well, if they’re especially if they’re 18, they’re so 19 years old is they don’t know a damn thing, you know They haven’t started a business. They haven’t started a family. They don’t have a permanent relationship. They’re not educated They don’t have any experience and for someone to come and say well you’re in a position to change the world is nothing, but a way of Disenchanting them with adult wisdom. It’s like you’re not ready to change the world You’ve got a lot to learn but you can learn it and in learning it you’ll become much more powerful and much more Charismatic and much more articulate and much more wise and sensible and that’s the way forward to being much more than you are and young people when you’re 18 and you have 60 years of life ahead of you what you want to hear above all else is that There’s way more of you yet to come Because what else has anything with those 60 years so It’s it’s a message. It’s a harsh message because it says well You’re not everything you could be but it’s a deeply optimistic message because it’s because the idea is that you could be way more Than you are incomparably more than you are and I do believe that and what’s so fun about this is that people keep telling me that people Keep telling me that it’s true. You know, I have people Endless people I got one kid come up to me the other day. It was so fun He said a year and a half ago. I had just got out of jail and I was homeless And he said I started listening to your lectures and I just I got married this year I have a child and I just bought my apartment. It’s like wow man. Good work You know you did that in a year and a half And you know, I was in LA the other about a month ago and you know this I was in a rough part of LA Downtown LA near the Apollo Theater, and I’d given a talk there my wife and I were walking down the street This car pick pulled up and then his kid walked out. He was about 19 or so Good-looking Hispanic kid ran over and asked me if I was dr. Peters and I said yes, and he was all excited He said he’d been watching my videos for about a year and a half and they really helped him straighten out his life He was just smiling away He said wait a minute wait a minute and he ran back to his car and he came back out with his dad and His dad was standing there you know and they had their arms around each other and They were just grinning like mad and the kid said look I’ve really put my relationship together with my father and we’re really on board with this together And they were just like so happy you couldn’t believe it and that just happens over and over like it happens. I would say four or five times a day in restaurants or in airports or while you’ve been experiencing that to some degree in Australia you said and it’s it’s so good and The mainstream media that’s been covering what I’ve been doing, you know they just missed this completely because everything it seems like everything that constitutes news in our society has to be Political and group oriented this isn’t political and it’s not group oriented what I’m trying to do as a good clinical Psychologist and perhaps a good educator and I mean good striving to be good in the moral sense is to help people develop as individuals and they are and it’s really working and it’s it’s a thrill to be on this tour because that’s all I hear and no one talks to me about the political issues or very very rarely and it’s all because I also think that the battle against Collectivists and let’s say the battle against identity politics isn’t to be had in the political realm maybe that’s a secondary issue what the way that you that you fight for the sovereignty of the individual is by getting your act together and and right locally right where you are and starting to take advantage of everything that you have in front of you and And then you do, you know harm our way. All you do is make yourself less bad. Who what’s the harm? Not that’s a good thing to some extent I think the battle here is almost one of statism or collectivism versus individual liberty who’s going to shape who? So you’ve got the whole that sort of pushed from the left identity politics victimhood policies Approaches and what have you we owe these people? What have you? So the state has control and shapes individuals and helps them forward on the other hand You have the different view that says no the state should be shaped by the people that make up the state, you know Australia is a sum total of individuals who are Australian and they ought to be Shaping the public square not having the public square of your local the public sector shaping them The whole argument is about what what what’s the primary unit of analysis? That’s everything What’s the primary unit of analysis and in the West the primary unit of the analysis has been the logos and that’s something like Devine? individual consciousness and it’s on that ground that we developed our idea of individual sovereignty and citizenship and you know, we don’t talk about a citizen is someone who adopts the Responsibilities of an ethical being that’s a citizen. We don’t talk about that even in schools Tell people that look the meaning in your life is going to be found It’s gonna be proportionate to the degree that you take responsibility for Positively shaping your experience and the experience of the people around you and this isn’t like be good in some in some week Be inoffensive and harmless sense. It’s not that at all It’s like get your spine straight get your aggression integrated pick a heavy goal like a heavy high goal something you can barely tolerate lifting and struggle along with it and that’s where you’ll find yourself respect and and people know that it’s it’s fun to watch the Working-class guys respond to this too, you know because they know this most of those guys work like mad, you know and they know that there’s nobility in that and and there is and so It’s it’s well I’m people also say well that they’re happy to come to my lectures or even read the book because I’m helping them find words to express things that they already knew to be true and those things that they know to be true are the Bedrock axioms of our culture and one of the things we got right in the West was the idea of the sovereign Responsible individual not the person with rights and certainly not the person with rights granted to them by the state That’s not part of the English common law tradition. You’re the locus of Rights But but only in some sense because you’re the locus of ultimate responsibility. I Guess part of what I’ve been trying to tell people is that there’s no difference between meaning and responsibility They’re the same thing. Yeah. No, I understand what you’re saying. Now as I looked at that audience. I thought to myself We’re doing a lot of talking about the first world war in this country 60 thousand Australians died out of a very small population in that horrendous event and we celebrate their bravery those young Anzacs we call them who went off to Gallipoli and then to the Western Front and we’re involved in some of the critical battles of the First World War every year Australians turn out in extraordinary numbers and more and more young Australians turn out to if you like pay tribute to their Courage and as I looked out across that audience, I thought there’s a lot of people here that I’d willingly Or I would choose to be with in the trenches They are essentially people who want to be to use the word. You did just a moment ago Noble to the best of their ability But they live in a culture somehow that says no that’s all nonsense that’s not where you ought to go and It seemed to me that they’re deeply resenting and deeply keen to reject that approach. Look here’s here’s what it is so there’s this idea that That’s pushed very hard in the Universities by the postmodern neo-marxist types and before anybody objects I know perfectly. Well that technically speaking post-modernism and neo-marxist neo Marxism aren’t commensurate But it doesn’t stop people from from joining them together Ideologically, but in any case the idea is that the West is fundamentally an oppressive patriarchy which it isn’t it’s hardly an oppressive society because every society is partly oppressive and flawed, but fundamentally, the West is not an oppressive patriarchy and but if you by that line then the next thing that comes along is that Anything you do that? contributes to that Patriarchy is also oppressive and tyrannical and so that’s extraordinarily demoralizing for people who are trying to make their way in the world because they’re trying to Hoist their responsibilities up on their shoulders and become competent Contributing adults and they’re criticized to death for being oppressive tyrants And so there’s a conflation of competence with tyranny and you can’t do anything to anyone that’s more demoralizing that you know than that Nietzsche said if you want to punish someone punish Them for their virtues and so they’re tired of that. It’s so demoralizing You know, like it appeals to the part of each man. Let’s say and each woman for that matter who wants to avoid responsibility because you can rationalize it and say well I’m not gonna take responsibility because that just makes me a tyrant and an agent of the Patriarchy, but that’s a– that sort of thing leads people down at toolpath and I’ve seen that my my friends and in my clinical practice So instead we say look like our culture has problems every culture does and it needs everyone Everyone has to be awake so that we don’t slip at every level of our social being into some like a blind authoritarianism, but the way that that happens is by waking up and taking responsibility once again for yourself and your family and Your community and that that and that’s Noble which is a word you never hear It’s like a human being has to be a noble creature to withstand the tragedy of existence without becoming corrupt and so and that calls to the best in people and Jordan just we should wrap up on that part of it that evening though, but there was one other thing When we came to question time, there were four mics in the room. They lined up 20 deeper deets We got to seven. I think the seventh question was from a lady who asked a very intelligent question about what? Parents bring to their children and and in particular were there things that mothers brought to their children that women do best and other things that fathers bring to their children that are best you gave a very rousing answer the issue of fathering and as I say, There are a lot of men there I gather that your audiences of the demographics have broadened out now, but that was a very young man centric group And you hammered the importance as I heard it all fathering Well, the the empirical literature on this is absolutely clear I mean, you know, we have this idea that’s being pushed forward that all families are equal. It’s like There’s a there’s a grain of truth in that in that people who are struggling Mightily to raise their children properly are worthy of respect whether there are single or in couples but the empirical literature is absolutely clear that that stable intact for the families with fathers there produce children who do way better on almost every possible measure and even more than that that in communities where fathers tend to be at home What you know as part of the stable family the communities themselves do better even those kids that don’t have fathers at home So the role of the father is unbelievably important and the question is what particular rold as a father plan I just had a good conversation with Warren Farrell about that and part of no part of my research should indicated that men are particularly useful in initiating Rough-and-tumble play and play with their children in general and Farrell extended that by noting that men could use the opportunity to play as a reward for delaying gratification among their children That’s a really big deal because one of the things you have to do to help people mature is to teach them to delay gratification and to sustain attention and it looks like Men that the pleasure that children get in playing with their fathers Rough and tumble play but other forms of play as well Of primary reward that can be used to help children learn to make the proper sacrifices and regulate their impulses over the long term so So, you know and I think fathers now of course mothers can do this too, but I think fathers Are because mothers are generally charged with the fundamental care of infants. There’s a tension between that and encouraging children to step forward out into the world as as Courageous beings and you know mothers are very very attached to their infants and their infants are very fragile it’s often hard for them to make the transition from primary security provider and caregiver to forthright encourage er of adventure and that’s certainly something that fathers can do is It’s better to construe life as an adventure rather than as an enterprise that’s there to make you feel secure or happy It’s a great adventure and a dangerous one at that because everyone’s life is at stake in this adventure You know, we’re unbelievably tough creatures if we if we put ourselves out fully Okay, now you said something very interesting there and very important in my view you talked about empirical evidence in the relation to the importance of fathering empirical evidence reason evidence-based decision-making calm thoughtful deliberation rather than emotion in other words the difference between thinking and Feeling seems to me to be incredibly important We should follow the facts to where they take us, but we’re confronted by it seems to be you mentioned and you said they’re not related but we tie them together there, you know sort of cultural Marxism and post-modernism it seems to me the cultural Marxist will deliberately distort the truth be because of their agendas or hide the truth because of their agendas the post modernists are fallen into this trap of If you like moral relativity, so what’s good for you is true for you And what’s good for me is true for me. Even if they’re really painting black as white and white as black Isn’t that a problem? It’s worse than that in some sense because it’s not even what’s true for you It’s true for you. And what’s true for me is true for me It’s what it’s true for your group is only good for your group And what’s true for my group is only good for my group And so that sets us off in in group conflict in a tribal sort of way. You know the the the real radical types who are swallowed up by this ideology believe that science itself is nothing but a Eurocentric Patriarchal construct. I mean they dispense completely with the fact that Scientific discovery has given us this incredible Technological power that’s lifted the entire world out of abject poverty in a period of about a hundred and fifty years For that for them for some reason that doesn’t constitute evidence and so when you bring up evidence There’s hand waving because the people who dispute this sort of thing rarely know the details of the literature They just write it off and say well that whole scientific enterprise that’s just part of the way that Eurocentric males dominate and destroyed the planet It’s all power games for these people. There’s no there’s no reality at the bottom of it outside of the power game And so that’s a well That that to me that that that’s a that’s a viewpoint that leads inevitably to tribal conflict That’s all that’s all that’s what it does know. You might be able to help me I think was George Orwell who made a reference to an idea being so utterly stupid that only a member of the intelligentsia could believe It no sensible person in the street would accept it for a moment There was a bit of there that night I would have thought you actually made a comment quite a I thought a very astute remark that about something that sound absolutely obvious and then you father finished it by saying you Would have thought someone in a university somewhere might have noticed now if I’d been an academic at any university in Australia I would have realized that I needed to wake up to myself because the audience lifted the roof the place with their applause they are highly skeptical about what is happening now in our educational institutions There is no other way to read that audience of a thousand decent Australians They are very skeptical about the value for money. We’re getting now out of our tertiary education sector Yeah, well, it’s the whole education sector to I would say increasingly from kindergarten all the way through University Yeah I think that I’m in very in creasing lis embarrassed to be a member of the Academy Because of that like I was reading this book today by a by a Norwegian called progress. It’s a really good book I would highly recommend it very straightforward and all it is is a compendium of empirical facts about how much better the world has been getting for the last Hundred and fifty years in just every possible way three hundred thousand people a week are being hooked to the electrical power Grid, right we’ve reduced we’ve almost eliminated Starvation throughout the world except for political reasons and starvation was a big problem in places like Sweden and Italy Less than a hundred years ago Island People our people have access to fresh water and the fastest growing economies in the world are in sub-saharan Africa We’re just making progress progress on every possible front and everything that people learn in the education system seems to be associated with the idea that human beings are a cancerous growth on the planet that we’re going to hell in a handbasket and that we’re gonna burn ourselves out in the next 50 years and die and It’ll be our fault too. And you know, it’s just not the case. It’s simply not the case I mean we have problems in front of us, but there’s a deep anti human ethos that permeates that and you know Maybe it’s still a hangover from our pessimism from the Cold War You know because everyone was truly terrified for about five decades that we were gonna put everything to the torch, you know and maybe we still haven’t really recovered from that and it’s not surprising because it was brutal, but Reading this book on progress just made me think again. How badly were Educated because people just don’t know how much things are getting better and why? Free markets are a huge part of it private property is a huge part of it And that’s all associated with the idea of the sovereign individual. And so this really works I mean, it’s true that Europe got rich first, but that’s only being a hundred and most at most one hundred and fifty years It’s not even that long. It’s really since about 1895 and Europe first, but man China there’s no one starving in China There’s no one starving in India You know Southeast Asia has enough food and and Sub-saharan Africa is growing like mad And then that we have these we have these we have our education system that trumpets that you know we live in a corrupt patriarchy that we should all identify with our tribal groups and that the right way of Interviewing history is victimizer group against victim group. It’s like it’s no wonder people are skeptical about it It’s a profoundly anti Western ethos. And the thing is about the West is we got the sovereign individual, right? It’s right and it’s the responsibility part. That’s right. Not the rights part. I mean the rights traits are necessary. But but only The rights are there so that you couldn’t express your responsibility. That’s what that’s the whole point Okay, well let’s come to this issue of our own almost loathing now of our own beliefs and values here in Australia now, we’re having an extraordinary debate going on a very wealthy and Likable, I knew him well philanthropists called Paul Ramsey who was very active in the health center Left a very large amount of money to be made available to set up An academy for the study of Western civilization and he wanted it to be done in one of our major universities now one of our most acclaimed universities Entered into deep negotiations then the education union got involved and said no. No, this is going to be terrible. It’ll be all about European Ideas of European supremacy so that same university has centers for Islamic studies for Indigenous Studies They are not particularly autonomous in the sense that the university or sorry. They’re not particularly controlled It seems by the university They do pretty much their own thing, but I know you can’t have a center for the study of Western civilization It will fill us up with all sorts of racist ideas Supremacist ideas. This is really worrying if we can’t understand our own past In fact as a very wise Asian said here the other day If you wonder them that want to understand Asian cultures understand your your own first Well, it means to me it’s just first of all, you know in some sense I’m less worried about what’s happening with the universities than I was because I think that They’re going to destroy themselves completely if they continue the way they are and that all that’s going to happen is that people will take the genuine value in the Wisdom of the past and presented in alternative forms, they’ll just steal it out from underneath the universities I would say to the philanthropist if the universities don’t want the money then they should set up an institute on their own That might very well be a good course You can go directly to the people now, you know, like for now a social example for me if I want a lecture now I can lecture on anything I want Whenever I want with no bureaucratic restrictions And I have an audience of people who are only listening because they want to listen There that’s where the university is The University is where there’s an audience to people who are only listening because they want to be educated That is the University. The buildings are irrelevant Let’s let’s build on that from I’m it because watching this debate unfold in Australia We’re listening your academic saying ah, no. No, we’ve got to preserve our academic integrity And we’ve we’re here to protect policies of diversity and inclusiveness And all of those sorts of things and somebody tartly pointed out Actually, we thought they were there to teach our young people how to think for themselves Primarily that isn’t what they’re there for because that’s predicated on the idea that there are sovereign Individuals and that they can actually think for themselves as individuals The whole idea here is that you’re not an individual. You’re the member of a group that’s it, and they’re serious about this This isn’t a trivial objection. It’s a fundamental objection, but I would also say look there’s a New Testament Statement don’t cast pearls before swine and you know that usually has to do with words Right don’t waste words of wisdom on those who will not hear but you could also just look at it literally if you have pearls and you’re trying to give them to someone and they won’t take them then go find someone else to give the pearls to if you’re trying to give money to a University to do something great and they won’t take it. It’s obvious that they don’t want to do anything great So don’t give them the money. It’s the wrong people Ok, well, let’s taste this had a little bit more wisdom, you’ve mentioned the difference between if you like knowledge and accumulated cleverness and what have you and wisdom Surely there’s a difference because to go back again to Chatswood I would say a good chunk of the people there were not university educated But they were smart and I would say they I’d say more they were wise They were striving for wisdom. And that’s where wisdom is wisdom is in the striving for wisdom and wisdom is building out Wisdom isn’t a collection of facts wisdom is knowledge of how to conduct yourself in the world So it’s a it’s an action. It’s an existential issue. It’s an it’s its truth as revealed in action. That’s wisdom wisdom also understands consequences Well, it’s it’s sophisticated in its understanding of consequences because you think well What are the consequences and the answer is well? There’s the consequences for you now and for you next week and next month and five years from now So the consequences are you and future you so that’s an iterated game but the consequences are also for your family now and in the future transfer to your community now and in the future and wisdom is the ability to consider all of those consequences as part of your as part of what guides your vision and your and your and your operations in the world and that’s character and Then nobility of character is to take all of those things into account simultaneously as I watch the debate I thought to some extent one of the problems you’ve got here is see as Lewis might have pointed out is pride Pride getting in the way of people having sufficient humility to recognize That the nonsense they peddling is simply unconvincing in terms of what you might call the pub test What would pass the pub test? Out there where people have common sense and can see when people are being real and when they’re not being real Well, it’s easy to dispense with that You just develop sufficient contempt for the common person and then you don’t have to worry about what they think You know and then and that’s and that’s when you confuse being smart with being wise and they’re not the same thing I don’t think there’s any relationship between them In fact, I mean intelligence is a great gift But it can go terribly wrong and it can certainly turn into a kind of intellectual arrogance that’s for sure that blinds you to to your own ignorance and humility is the antidote to that and the humility the element of humility there that’s necessary is to understand that what you don’t know is more important than what you know, and So if you’re an ideologue you you dispense with all doubt because you already know everything I was gonna say I was reminded of that friend I Chatswood as as you probably gathered it had the big impact on man. It was a powerful reminder to me that For me, it seems very important to recognize it. There’s a sense in which the more you learn the more you realizes You don’t know very much and there’s a lot more to learn Yeah, well You know being with an audience can help with it out, too Because if you’re if you’re talking to an audience, you can check to see if your message is being received, you know And you might say well these people just can’t understand what I have to say It’s like well, yeah They probably can if you if you formulated it carefully And you actually talk to them individual to individual which is what I try to do in my lectures Like I’m not talking to the mob. I’m not talking to the group. I never talked to the group when I’m lecturing I always pick people in the audience and speak right to them and they reflect the audit, you know, they reflect the entire group But they only reflect it because the group is made up of individuals like them So let’s just go back to something. You said earlier that ask of me is very interesting And that is that young people don’t want to be involved in political activism They want to get himself sorted out first many of those young people though I think want to behave nobly and help build a better society a stronger civic square if I can put it that way and Good on them. That’s terrific. That’s important They’re very disillusioned with politics and yet we have to govern our country We have to make certain the rules are set if you like And that we maximize everybody’s opportunities to live in freedom and insecurity When young people have if you like grounded themselves and feel ready to act nobly in the public square What should they do? How can they make a difference they want to make a difference? How do they go about it Oh More power to them I think but I think you know They they start by realizing they don’t know anything and by starting to learn and then if they learn and work and discipline themselves The opportunities to expand will come naturally because people will notice them Like look if you work with competent people hyper competent people one of the things you learn is that hyper competent People are always looking for young people to mentor Yeah there’s starving and Hoping that someone will come along who who has a lot of potential and then what they’ll do is offer them an opportunity Hmm, you know, I keep my eye out at the University and in my private work as well all the time for young people Who’ve got something to contribute. Oh, you look like you’re sharp. Let’s find out. Here’s a task Why don’t you go try this then they come back and knock it out of the park. And you think oh, that’s good Cuz I got 20 more things here that need doing that I can’t do I’ve got more opportunities than I know what to do with here’s another one and so the thing is is that if you develop your competence and you discipline yourself and you start to make that manifest in any Hierarchy that’s even vaguely competent. You’ll have more opportunities come your way. Then you’ll know what to do with So it’ll happen organically so and it it is the way of the world and well if that isn’t happening in the organization that you’re working with and you’re Working diligently and you have your art together, then it’s time to find a different organization But generally speaking most organizations aren’t that corrupt? Some are interesting, I’d say that Australia’s, have we worship youth culture in a way? but well things I’ve noticed about youth is that Overwhelmingly if I have the opportunity to tap into the wisdom of an older person to be mentored they they go looking for it They’re very keen for it Well, it’s part of the part of the human Proclivity to admire and imitate, you know, I mean one of the things that drives us forward We don’t only learn by facts. In fact, we hardly learn by facts at all. We learn by Stories and we learn by imitation and we and may imitate those we admire and we admire those who are competent and So if you find someone who knows what you don’t and can operate effectively in the world in a manner that you would like to but can’t then you’re going to admire them and if you admire them you’re Going to open the door to have them mentor you and I mean that’s that’s really fundamental to human cognition and human psychological Development it’s the catalyst for human development because we’re deeply imitative It’s it’s the thing that distinguishes us from other creatures Perhaps even more than even more fundamentally than language use if I watch if you know how to do something and I watch you do it I Can learn to do it without having to go through all the pain that you had to go through to learn it It’s such a gift That’s why history is so important our personal history Our if you like our family history I was thinking the other day that my grandfather made a mistake with my father on the farm that I am determined Because I can learn from that not to repeat with my own son on the farm And then there’s of course the broader cultural history which is why I believe and I think you win it you and I share this view we ought to learn from our history we ought to learn from the horrors of Collectivism in Soviet Russia, we ought to be honest about it We should teach our young people at the same time as we’re honest about the what’s in our own cultural history But we’re also honest about the nobility For example the mighty push to abolish slavery surely the greatest human rights movement of all times. We ought to know about it It’s Noble. It was led by noble people who struggled against extraordinary odds for a long time Yes, exactly and slavery was a human Universal. So it’s an it’s an amazing miraculous attainment It’s it’s a miraculous attainment. Absolutely and you know, what we’re supposed to be doing in the Universities is separating the wheat from the chaff not dispensing with everything as if it’s chaff because we don’t want to put in the effort to discriminate and So it’s easier. Well, it’s just all corrupt It’s like no it’s not people aren’t starving to death any more and societies are increasingly free and children are dying in the massive numbers that they once died in and People are people’s life expectancy has doubled Like things are going pretty well don’t muck it up and We need to figure out why and we need to take stock of the things that we did in the past that were wrong Obviously, but that doesn’t mean that everything everyone did in the past was wrong That’s that that’s not thinking that’s just that’s just reflexive resentment masquerading as intellectual superiority There’s nothing about it. That’s good When you’ve been incredibly generous with your time, can we wrap up? Let’s just think through What would we say in terms of people looking for solutions in? Academia in the media in politics. How do we if you like Start the movement to reclaim What you called? evidence based empirical decision evidence in decision-making in other words learn to think again and stop being us so so emotional there’s a place for emotion, but there’s a place for thinking I Think well, I mean if you’re a university student the first thing you want to note is that you’re there to learn to think and to write and to Read and to speak that’s what you’re there to do. And the reason you’re there to do that is because that makes you incredibly confident Because you’re going to have to communicate with people for the rest of your life And if your communication has depth and clarity Then you can see your way forward and you can bring other people aboard and you can do great things And so it’s super it’s super useful to get a real liberal arts education because it can make you into a great communicator and thinker if You’re going to university read the great books and you can you can find Professors who will teach you that but that’s what you’re there to do You’re there to spend four years immersing yourself in the imitation of the greatest people that our culture has produced and if you think well There were no great people. Well, then you might as well not go to university because University is the storehouse of the thoughts of great people and if you dispense with a whole notion notion of great then Maybe you’re there too. I’m a political activist, but that’s not university. That’s something else that’s like an ideological cult and Maybe that’s what you want. And and and I mean You know, you’ll pay the price for that one way or the other But you even there’s a university student you have to take on the burden of educating yourself to large degree But you have to decide that that’s what you want. And that’s what you need in terms of your own personal life Um, I have a program that I developed with my colleagues called the Future authoring program It’s itself authoring calm and it helps people develop a vision for their life along about six fundamental dimensions family education mental and physical health career avoidance of temptation like drug and alcohol use We tried to parse out our use of time you productive and meaningful use of time outside of work we tried to parameterize a decent life and Then to guide people through the process of imagining what their life could be like if they put it together properly and you need to develop a vision for your life and a sense of who you could be if you were the character that you could be and and Thinking through that and articulating it is they’re actually part of it should be part of a classic liberal arts education Because the whole point of Education apart from the technical end Which is important is to produce a noble citizen. That’s the point not to produce a bloody political activist Well, then you just wish would keep in mind that cuz even a Chatswood that not a Lot of those people. Most of them are not at university So they’re not excluded either from in any way shape or form from broadening their horizon It’s not like they’re not doing important things like working men for example working people in general I don’t care what they’re doing if they’re working at a diner as a waiter. They’re there They’re laying bricks or what working a forklift or they’re plumbers or these people are bloody important they build the infrastructure and there’s a huge difference between a a craftsman who takes pride and caring what he’s doing and Contributes to his family and the community in that nobility of work and someone who does shot in half hazard job There’s great nobility in genuine work So and and I believe that you have just as much power. Let’s say much as much authority as much clout as a forthright and honest working person as you do as an intellectual and I mean you can be very successful as a working person if you if you’re Diligent and honest and committed and competent and aiming up because it look I do believe that each person is the center of the world and You have what you need right at that Center and maybe you’re not Intellectual, but you’re good with your hands and you’re practical and solid and people can rely on you It’s like man That’s a big deal because then when their roof blows off in the middle of a storm They can call you up and you’re there in an hour and you put the damn thing back together and and and hooray for you It’s a all of these things are important. And so there’s great nobility in working class work as far as I’m concerned Well Jordan that’s again a fascinating conversation from my perspective and It’s tremendous to be able to interact with somebody who cares passionately because that’s what that’s what they’re picking up I know it’s not about you You’re actually trying to make a difference for people and you know, we’re seeing this I’m really disturbed by the way in which some of these movements were seeing at the moment of trying to divide men from women and A lot of people getting men are getting this idea that somehow their masculinity is toxic Well, you know We don’t say that when the brave young French policeman takes a bullet for a young woman and her daughter in a French supermarket We celebrate that and I actually think that not all But the great majority of men want to be Noble they know their flaws As you said they’ve got to be honest about them. We all need to be honest But they also have a big part of them if you like that divine spike So does aspire divine spark that leads them to want to be responsible noble people Yes And that’s that’s what women want for men too so unless and as they’ve been damaged in their Relationship so that they don’t trust men at all and then are prepared to dispense with all of them which isn’t helpful But, you know men and women need to call to the nobility in each other and that is what they both want because you want a stalwart companion by your side know if you’re a man you want someone you can trust and you can rely on it who will help guide you and and and and care for you and to care for your children and all of that and to make a life with and if you’re a Woman you want a man that you can rely on and that’s going to help you Help you deal with the children and with the excess fragility that you have because of your pronounced role in reproduction and that is what we want and to denigrate and to split men and women apart is is to Damage humanity itself because it’s not like we’re all men are all women. I have sisters and a mother and a wife and a daughter and Women have husbands and sons and fathers. We’re not separate and to split us apart on on the basis of sex it’s, it’s well. It’s It’s it’s as pathological as a suicidal impulse or a murderous impulse or a genocidal impulse none of that’s good It’s not acceptable But we’re a hell of a lot better off than we were and things are getting better and we can do better yet That’s a way better story We look forward very much to having you back on those shores Very nice speaking with you again, and thank you very much for the opportunity. Thanks Jordan

100 Comments

  • Spoopy MoonCritter

    Sorry this is off topic Dr. Peterson but I just learned that a new film about Stalin is about to be released. I would love to hear you do a review of it when you have the time. Best wishes to you and your family.

  • Pat Walker

    Gentlemen, I listened to your first conversation. This conversation fleshed it out further. I look forward, eagerly, to your future conversations. 😉 Thank you for your time and efforts.

  • Vaskedama

    While I enjoy these conversations, I wish Jordan would take take his audio / video input quality a little more seriously. Invest a few bucks in a proper microphone and camera and consider getting some sound treatment when doing vlogs in your natural domain.

  • MrNapoleanMortimer

    "I do believe that each person is a centre of the world, and you have what you need right at that centre"

  • Friar Newborg

    DE-FUND ALL Leftwing Universities! Fire the Lefty professors!
    Let them LOSE THEIR STUDENTS, and die of neglect

  • Daniel Griffith

    Jordan, I dont know if you have seen this…but its great…do you agree? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBSOTY1rTtg

  • Lloyd Garth

    Le montage video est très subtil ici. All is appearance/presentation. Pour nous convaincre, il faut nous présenter de belles images. Voilà! C'est de la bonne publicité! Le peuple en redemande… ils veulent toujours se faire berner. Even JP is a victim of his own fame. I've followed the man since his very beginnings — he could have been so much greater.

  • Lloyd Garth

    Let's simplify: you are a travelling salesman. 12 rules, 10 commandments, the 48 laws of power, the noble eightfold path, the 196 sutras of yoga, etc… Principles and numbers! Always the same repetitive "lawgivers." Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. We never learn. History always repeats itself, albeit with more technological prowess (sometimes).

  • Dan's Spot on the Tube

    Very nice intro! Both men would encompass an extremely good talk in the afternoon, on a walk, cool breeze and refreshing libation in hand. Amazing people.

  • Ryan G.

    I don't agree with every little thing Jordan says, but it astounds me that people think he's talking politics…

  • DarkVelvet1000

    The anti human views has only one source – the fallen one. He's also done a good job of hiding his existence so that people think he is just a story, a fable, an archetype. No, he is real and hell bent on destroying humanity who carry the image of the Creator. Consciously or unconsciously silly people who abdicate their thinking processes are being manipulated to carry out his agenda.

  • Tanya Miller

    Isnt this a god dam surprise to hear especially after watching gogglebox and batchelorette OMG! why dont the media stations watch this we might ALL be better for it

  • MooseTompson

    Man I found out you were in Calgary the night you were presenting in Calgary. I was staying on top of where you were touring but dropped the ball and missed out :(.

  • Jack Rose

    Interesting way of filming, why not record when they were in person in the earlier shots? Amazing content though!

  • Terry Bear

    I would have loved to see Jordan and John, in Australia. But I just found out that Dr. Peterson is coming to Hawaii, in November, and I can't wait to see him!

  • Tony R

    Ask the question ..where would one find the origins of Marxism / Socialism,,? I would direct anyone interested to look at the teachings of the Catholics/ Jesuits of the 17th century. Not hard to find.
    The thinking is that to raise the church/pope to Supreme status one must lower everyone else to the lowest common denominator. Easier to rule the masses and eliminate opposition.

  • Donna Harris

    This second conversation is as good as the first. Love Jordan Peterson's sharp intellect and brutal honesty, equally loved John Anderson's genuine search for truths.
    Great conversation.

  • TG 125

    Ok. So I'm in high school right now. There's a certain subject that teaches the ideology of the extreme left.
    Shoukd I speak out against it, or just stay low? If I speak out, I might get suspended.
    It's worse because in the tests and exams of this subject (called Life Orientation) they force THEIR opinion down your throat.

  • Ioana P.B.

    We are hungry to hear and speak the Truth! In the post modern society, where the Image has become a Goddess, we are searching inside to find the Truth. Jordan Peterson is a true Leader for this Mission! Please come to Milan!

  • Two and a Half Slavs

    Dr. Peterson, could you please invest in a better microphone. I understand that you travel a lot and cannot take a bunch, but a good microphone is key to long talks like this one.

  • Stefan Topalovic

    Mr Peterson, I agree with your argument that equality of outcome is a bad idea and that it exists unrecognized in many leftist thinkers. I also agree with your defense of free speech. On the other hand, I think that people who live in parts of Africa do have an economic disadvantage which is the result of certain historical events. Bearing in mind that equality of outcome is a bad idea, how should we change our hierarchies to adapt to these facts and what are your thoughts on this kind of "economic" privilege if I can call it that? ( I apologize for my English, I'm not a native speaker).

  • D4Real

    0:03 Telescopes are supposed to be pointed at the sky to see the stars…. when you see one pointing down like that it means only one thing…… peeping tom

  • T Dunph

    Once again , another chat that goes above and beyond the call of duty for Dr Peterson. What he means to so many people and especially myself is immense. His messages are clear, the advice may appear to be simple yet, when people heed his words, his words dig deep into the human consciousness and sub-conscious and people realize that in fact it is complex. I believe in some cases, people are helped by Dr Peterson without their even being aware of it. I believe many feel that they have experienced a series of mini re-awakenings as they view his lectures and in depth discussion/debates. Thank You Dr Peterson.

  • John Turner

    The only bad thing with Jordan Peterson with these many videos is that he seems to be very saturated now. I've watched many of his videos and just keep hearing the same things from him (almost verbatim).

  • EnchanterTim

    His speaking of his impact to the individual is HUGE. That’s why we are listening. This man has changed my life as an individual. I’m pretty sure I will never have the opportunity to say thank you in person. Even if he never sees this. Thank you Jordan Peterson.

  • wroughtirony

    Peterson mentions eliminating starvation but for political reasons. He names several countries where starvation was a problem. Anderson mentions Ireland. OOPS!!

  • Robert Santarossa

    Gnothi seauton. The unexamined life is not worth living. Thank God for Jordan reminding us what humanity has known to be true for at least 2,400 years.

  • aldebaran Redstar

    Peterson doesn’t talk about environmental degradation and the problems of climate change. Why not? This is part of human activity, and when our large mammals are going extinct (or down to a handful of members), or when necessary resources like clean water and even top soil are in short supply, how is this getting better and better, as he claims? Also it is not true that ‘no one is starving’!! That is a false statement that is surprising coming from him. Kind of shocking lacunae in his analysis.

  • GMa Bear

    while I really have the utmost respect for Dr Peterson, he is wrong when he says babies are not dying. Sorry but mine and his genrations will go down in history as responsible for the most horrific infanticide . Unborn babies are still babies, and I hope my childrens generation shines a bright white hot spotlight of Truth in reversing this tragedy.

  • Evan Motions

    Hey guys,

    I have no clue if someone will read this. I was talking with a great friend of mine, we are both life coaches, and we were talking about how "The Secret To Living is Giving".
    He decided to gift like 10 Jordan Peterson Self-Authoring Programs to people and do a free coaching session with those people, just to give and make their lives better through gifting our time, energy, focus, resources, brainpower to anyone interested in that.

    I got so inspired by his idea that I told him that I would do the exact same thing. So here i am:

    I am gifting one self authoring program by Jordan Peterson to the person who comments the most awesome reply to this message. And I will give you my time for a coaching session for free as well.

    I will do this same thing on other Jordan Peterson videos as well <3

    Much Love,

    Evan Motions

  • lessevdoolbretsim

    All leftist activist whackos ever do is try to force change on people that they clearly don’t want using mob violence.

  • Max N

    I would have never guessed as a 24 year old American guy that a professor of psychology from Canada would be my primary role model.
    Thank you Mr.Peterson!

  • ThatPedanticCommenter

    When you said about who would argue with working to take responsibility and actively try to make a better world, two things came to mind. First is the obvious one: the people who are too lazy and want everything handed to them. That goes without saying. The second though is a peculiar case, one that I came upon personally in a friend of mine.

    This person is not a very agreeable human being in general, but I put up with their glaring flaws given all the things we've gone through in our friendship. While they aren't an active anarchist or someone like that, they mistrust society in general to the point where they believe we'd all be better off if the world was not organized into large countries with sweeping laws and instead was almost split back again into more personal tribes/factions. They hold strongly to the value of freedom to the point of slight naivety above literally all else. Just below that they hold that one should strive to become completely and utterly independent, learning to survive on their own without aid from anyone. Any pro-social argument I've made to them about anything is immediately rejected due to their individualistic, self-centered ideology. They reject the goods that society has brought us without truly appreciating what they have. They scoff at the idea that social cooperation towards higher goals can bring great meaning to people's lives, and prefer the idea that living in chaos gives far more meaning.

    Every time I bring up anything to do with this, they refer to a lab experiment called the 'mouse utopia experiment', where mice were given a hugely enriched environment to live in and eventually killed each other off due to having no strife present. They believe society is like this in general, even when I bring up the fact that humans will always face some kind of strife, and continually working to overcome this strife is a pathway to achieving meaning. Their ideal world situation is bleak and depressing to most: a post-apocalypse where there is no law and every man must fend for themselves or die. To them, that is the situation where one is truly free and independent. But they seem to be naive of the consequences that come with this, among other things. Myself and them are almost total opposites in this regard.

    If this person was capable of being completely independent like they speak of and had the strength to live out their dream should it occur, I would probably think slightly higher of them. But they do not. They are childish in their beliefs, arrogant in their assumptions, and overconfident in their abilities. Their downfall in that situation would very likely be due to simple human laziness. Yet, we are still friends, for reasons I won't go into and that are too complicate to explain in a few words.

    I ask you this: can you reason with such a person to persuade them onto a better path? Or is there no hope for them?

  • Gökotta

    I literally scrub my kitchen down with every JP video. The longer the video, the higher the probability that you could eat off my kitchen floor.

  • Justyburger

    John Anderson is a rare glimpse these days, into a bygone era when journalism was actually credible and professional. It's a total breath of fresh air.

  • Shirlyn Makar

    Dr. Peterson, Please help me as a Grandmother to talk to my grandsons. I have 6 grandsons. Two are 11 years old. I want to spend some time with them talking and inspiring their nobility. What can I read with them at this age? You say things that I have always known.

  • Alex Huxley

    Dr Peterson is right. I listen while I’m working on my computer. I went to UofT all those many years ago but have learned more in the past couple of years than I ever thought I would. Loved you on the Jocko Podcast!

  • Miriana727

    "Don't cast pearls before swine" So true. Thank you once again, Dr. Peterson. My great dream is to see you in person. Perhaps at the end of October/beginning of November in Scotland. But watching your videos, which I have been doing for years, has been so life-changing. So thank you once again.

  • Jester123ish

    To be fair people won't listen to 3 hours of someone they don't want to listen to, but if when they do find someone they want, they don't want it to stop.

  • Antony G

    Both believe that individualism is a product of Enlightenment values. This is because key elements of classical liberalism are based on individual rights and individual responsibilities, and because many people on the political right have misunderstood where all of this individualism has come from. The automatic assumption is that it must have come from these Enlightenment values because the word ‘individual’ is used. But in what context exactly are these ‘individual’ rights and ‘individual’ responsibilities meant to be understood? Classical liberals/bottom-up collectivists would say that every individual should strive to be a productive member of the community in which they live and to be a productive member of their family.

    Community and family are both collectivist social structures. Absolutely nothing to do with people living as individuals. In fact, until the rise of top-down collectivism in the 20th century hardly any individual lived as an individual. Individualism really is a product of welfarism which intentionally or unintentionally replaced the previously crucial family and civic bottom-up collectivist structures which kept the West functioning to such a high level for centuries. I'm very certain that it was intentional because top-down collectivists really hate the concept of the nuclear family and civic enterprises like Christianity and charity.

  • Antony G

    After the end of the Cold War, the West started to become almost completely taken over by progressives. These people are not classical liberals i.e., the bottom-up collectivist stream of cultural and political thinking that sprung out of the period in which the European monarchies started to lose power in the 17th century. Progressives are what you might call part of the anti-Enlightenment. They are top-down collectivists who hate everything that the Enlightenment stands for. We see this today in their obsession with cultural and moral relativism and the idea that even mathematics is racist.

    Most people seems to believe that there was one political and culture stream that came out of the period in which the Enlightenment began which was the Enlightenment. I believe there was two although it could be said that the second one was a result of the first. As soon as the average citizen was able to start buying expensive stuff then the resentment began to rise with a certain percentage of the population believing that all wealth should be equally shared out. This potency in human beings to respond negatively to other people having more stuff is locked into our DNA. We see the same reaction in children when toys and sweets are not handed out exactly the same. In fact, parents pay serious attention to this problem because they know the consequences.

    Before the Enlightenment everyone within the community in which they lived had pretty much the same so there was little resentment. But suddenly everyday folk could start trading and making money which changed everything. This resulted in two fundamentally different and opposing ideological world views being launched into the Western world at the same time. Bottom-up collectivism/Enlightenment values, and top-down collectivism/proto-Marxism. Both have been fighting it out for dominance ever since. Bottom-up collectivism was resoundingly winning until the rise of neo-Marxism in the mid-late 20th century. The anti-Enlightenment stream took over dominance based on groundwork that had been done in universities throughout the West in the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's.

  • Carlito A

    Hello Jordan, I am not at Uni but would like to know in your view what are the greatest books general terms you would recommend to read.

  • Docinze H. Martin (Satheist's Nightmare)

    The greatest achievement in all walks of life is… it isnt monetary success or scholastic achievement or prowess social program. But conquering failure and understand the bright side lesson of it and accept it with humility to have the privy, that so few in multi generation eager glimpse to what it reveal. Theres no school for that or simulation to create such phenomena to reveal its secrets.

    Great things will happen to those who wait. (Attitude counts) ; )

  • EmilKadabell

    Dr. Peterson… I love you, i love your work and what youre trying to do.. But saying that there is no starvation in china or india is simply false.. You could say that the amount of produced food is enough to feed everyone.. But i can guarantee you that the distribution and availability of food is not equal in the least, and there are absolutely people in china and india who are so poor that they are starving..

  • Blaine Hammond

    Funny how there's always a 500/1 ratio of likes to dislikes on the videos I watch. Guess there's always those who refuse to listen to people who have different ideas to their own.

  • Kt Carroll

    Doctor Peterson I am a truck driver and I listen to you at least 3-4 hrs a day and your commonsensical explanations are life changing in this day of so much division and hatred for men and moral issues that a tiny percentage of people are trying their best to force their ideology on the entire world. You showed up on the scene at the perfect time God Bless

  • Leon Ng

    Thank you guys so much John and Jordan. Your conversation is once more inspire me so much that I know I am a better man now and will continue to be better than I am now. Truly appreciated.

  • Arth

    For me, I was being resentful and bitter because (after many betrayal from the closest people) I assumed everyone lies and whatever they do is for some selfish reasons. When I started listen to Dr Peterson lectures on youtube I was literally shattered by honesty and truth coming out of his words. First time I saw person speaking the truth no matter what.
    It remindes me a bit Sodom and Gomorrah quote. Abraham said, “Will You really sweep away the righteous with the wicked? […]" “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak once more. Suppose ten are found there?” And He answered, “On account of the ten, I will not destroy it.”
    It seems even one righteous person who speaks the truth can save all wicked.
    I was crushed when my mother died from cancer few years ago. She believed in me to the very end, even when I stopped believe in myself. She said to me near the end of her life: "Remember, no matter what anyone will say, You have good in You". I thought about good and evil as silly, superstitial concept. There weren't such things. Only my benefits or others benefits.
    I believe in good and evil again. And now, that I can see the devil in me, hopefully I could also see possibility of good. Thank You for giving me back this treasure in my life.

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